Excellent episode BTW. Both women are so in sync and I find that to be supremely helpful in trying to embrace the difficult changes that unfortunately need to happen to have some iota of peace. Was curious what Stoic Mom believes the anger serves considering it is causing such great divides.
Thank you for this encouraging feedback and this question! Anger is information. Sometimes it's there to give us energy to create or hold a boundary, but it's also there to defend us against vulnerability. What is our relationship to the anger? Determining this takes self-awareness. Are you able to discern what the anger is here to teach you? Is there sadness that it's protecting? Most of us just project our self-judgments, and like you say, increase the great divides. If we know how, we can always work with our emotions to be healthier and strengthen our connections (which indeed sometimes means better boundaries.) If our anger is directed at something we have no power to change (we can't change others or even help someone who isn't interested in being helped,) we're likely being invited to grieve and let go, and so that anger is a defense that can prevent adaptation, leading instead to attacking energy that will pretty consistently makes us feel even more separate, lonely, unsupported.
"Who would choose this pain?" Well said and caused sadness and tears for me. Appreciate walking this path with others who can bring some kind of clarity to this insanity. Are we doing " the work" simply by listening and trying to become neutral or what does progress look like for those who can't plug into an adept therapist? As If one can even find one. If neutrality is created with out the addiction to painful feelings how are we distinguishing good pain from circular pain if we are still to feel so bloody awful?
"sadness and tears" are a good sign. We need soft hearts if we're to evolve and mature. So grateful for your comments and questions!
'Are we doing " the work" simply by listening and trying to become neutral or what does progress look like for those who can't plug into an adept therapist?'
Hmm. "trying to become neutral" I think we can better access neutrality when we have compassion for ourselves and the human condition. To get there we need to develop a practice of listening to ourselves and being honest about our feelings. Ask, "what does this tell me about myself?" We get to start separating our work from everyone else's. This is very freeing, but as you recognize, it is difficult (though not impossible) to do this without someone who can help you see your blind spots, as you say "an adept therapist" or a depth coach (which is what I do.) If you have someone in your life you feel safe with even when they're brutally honest with you (which usually means they've done some of their own work and don't feel the need to "fix" your feelings because your difficult feelings make them uncomfortable. This is part of having a neutral attitude) who can listen to you and reflect without judgment, that can be tremendously helpful.
"how are we distinguishing good pain from circular pain if we are still to feel so bloody awful" You said it. ALL pain is information. Being able to recognize when the pain is spiraling into more feelings of fear, anger, desperation, division--this is usually protecting us from the grief needed to let go of something we don't get to have. Once we let go (which can't be forced; this is a matter of conducive conditions. Where do you feel safe to shed the messy tears of futility?) then new possibilities open up. We can see the situation with fresh eyes and experience renewed energy to create something new and satisfying that we could not see before.
Hoping this is even a little helpful? We'll be accepting new members to the SMP in May, and in there we focus on our own inner work and moving from fear to faith.
Distressing to consider that PAIN gone awry is "protecting us from the grief needed to let go of something we don't get to have" That feels very spot on and definitely what I need to hear.
Aren't all those "feelings" part of the grief? How do you recognize it's turned to grief specifically? Grief would be an interesting episode to discuss more broadly.
So grateful for your thorough, thoughtful work and responses..
Great question, again! There are some potentially helpful Neufeld concepts, like that of the frustration traffic circle (I'm afraid I don't know off the top of my head which Attachment Matters episodes to refer you to. We hope to make this easier in the future to direct you straight there, but it might be helpful to visit the Episode One list on the Attachment Matters Substack; if you're glancing through the show notes, I'd also encourage looking for Ode to Melancholy, a training video from a Neufeld conference--you can also google this to locate it on YouTube. The presenter's name is Genevieve Shreier...) and the need for soft hearts; capacity for sadness and tears. Being able to recognize when we're "stuck" in our defenses may help us to refocus our energy toward the conditions we need to soften.
Yes! Most definitely many parents need better boundaries. I know the boundary thing has become a gen z/ millenial excuse to cut people out of communication but it's helpful to recognize the absolute need to differentiate the use of boundaries allowing space from the ideal trajectories subconsciously put on our kids. Boy is that a big topic!
Excellent episode BTW. Both women are so in sync and I find that to be supremely helpful in trying to embrace the difficult changes that unfortunately need to happen to have some iota of peace. Was curious what Stoic Mom believes the anger serves considering it is causing such great divides.
Thank you for this encouraging feedback and this question! Anger is information. Sometimes it's there to give us energy to create or hold a boundary, but it's also there to defend us against vulnerability. What is our relationship to the anger? Determining this takes self-awareness. Are you able to discern what the anger is here to teach you? Is there sadness that it's protecting? Most of us just project our self-judgments, and like you say, increase the great divides. If we know how, we can always work with our emotions to be healthier and strengthen our connections (which indeed sometimes means better boundaries.) If our anger is directed at something we have no power to change (we can't change others or even help someone who isn't interested in being helped,) we're likely being invited to grieve and let go, and so that anger is a defense that can prevent adaptation, leading instead to attacking energy that will pretty consistently makes us feel even more separate, lonely, unsupported.
So absolutely true! It is extremely isolating even if it is grief rather than anger..
"Who would choose this pain?" Well said and caused sadness and tears for me. Appreciate walking this path with others who can bring some kind of clarity to this insanity. Are we doing " the work" simply by listening and trying to become neutral or what does progress look like for those who can't plug into an adept therapist? As If one can even find one. If neutrality is created with out the addiction to painful feelings how are we distinguishing good pain from circular pain if we are still to feel so bloody awful?
"sadness and tears" are a good sign. We need soft hearts if we're to evolve and mature. So grateful for your comments and questions!
'Are we doing " the work" simply by listening and trying to become neutral or what does progress look like for those who can't plug into an adept therapist?'
Hmm. "trying to become neutral" I think we can better access neutrality when we have compassion for ourselves and the human condition. To get there we need to develop a practice of listening to ourselves and being honest about our feelings. Ask, "what does this tell me about myself?" We get to start separating our work from everyone else's. This is very freeing, but as you recognize, it is difficult (though not impossible) to do this without someone who can help you see your blind spots, as you say "an adept therapist" or a depth coach (which is what I do.) If you have someone in your life you feel safe with even when they're brutally honest with you (which usually means they've done some of their own work and don't feel the need to "fix" your feelings because your difficult feelings make them uncomfortable. This is part of having a neutral attitude) who can listen to you and reflect without judgment, that can be tremendously helpful.
"how are we distinguishing good pain from circular pain if we are still to feel so bloody awful" You said it. ALL pain is information. Being able to recognize when the pain is spiraling into more feelings of fear, anger, desperation, division--this is usually protecting us from the grief needed to let go of something we don't get to have. Once we let go (which can't be forced; this is a matter of conducive conditions. Where do you feel safe to shed the messy tears of futility?) then new possibilities open up. We can see the situation with fresh eyes and experience renewed energy to create something new and satisfying that we could not see before.
Hoping this is even a little helpful? We'll be accepting new members to the SMP in May, and in there we focus on our own inner work and moving from fear to faith.
Its a lot helpful! Tysm.
Distressing to consider that PAIN gone awry is "protecting us from the grief needed to let go of something we don't get to have" That feels very spot on and definitely what I need to hear.
Aren't all those "feelings" part of the grief? How do you recognize it's turned to grief specifically? Grief would be an interesting episode to discuss more broadly.
So grateful for your thorough, thoughtful work and responses..
Hope I can join the group in the future.
Great question, again! There are some potentially helpful Neufeld concepts, like that of the frustration traffic circle (I'm afraid I don't know off the top of my head which Attachment Matters episodes to refer you to. We hope to make this easier in the future to direct you straight there, but it might be helpful to visit the Episode One list on the Attachment Matters Substack; if you're glancing through the show notes, I'd also encourage looking for Ode to Melancholy, a training video from a Neufeld conference--you can also google this to locate it on YouTube. The presenter's name is Genevieve Shreier...) and the need for soft hearts; capacity for sadness and tears. Being able to recognize when we're "stuck" in our defenses may help us to refocus our energy toward the conditions we need to soften.
Yes! Most definitely many parents need better boundaries. I know the boundary thing has become a gen z/ millenial excuse to cut people out of communication but it's helpful to recognize the absolute need to differentiate the use of boundaries allowing space from the ideal trajectories subconsciously put on our kids. Boy is that a big topic!